Board Thread:Manga Discussion/@comment-32189512-20180216130910/@comment-2601:600:C880:32E2:C5EA:AF96:C2D9:3EEE-20180418051646

Mountaintimber wrote: 2601:600:C880:32E2:C5EA:AF96:C2D9:3EEE wrote: Your fact about Pouf is interesting, I was not aware of that. I know its a difficult thing to provide proof for but i was wondering if you had any way I could check that fact without just going through the entire ant arc of the japanese manga? It's not that I am doubting you its just I would like to be certain. I believe you made some solid points and I very much apreciate the fact that this debate was kept civil. Despite this I still stand by my original beliefs, Upon further research it came to my attention that on top of the use of boku, pitou also happens to be reffered to with kare in the databook. Pitou is also reffered to as a mother protecting her child by killua, this could though be interpreted as just a metaphor and not based on gender. Non the less it seems to me that when refered to in a gendered way it seems to be a mixture of both male and female. To be honest if Pitou were to be any binary gender, they strike me more as male (in the manga, the anime seems to make them more coded as female) Especially considering the explicitly flat chest (again manga only)  and the use of kare and boku (I know boku can be used by girls but its still more commonly male) I'm at a loss for how I could provide proof without uploading. Which I can do, I can upload volumes 20-30 to a mediafire folder for you if you'd like, what I won't do is pick out every page featuring or referencing Pouf or any busywork like that. Should have done your own research before making previous claims.

I'll refrain from explaining why the databook is a shitty source to spare us a five paragraph tangent but if you've just read Pitou's wiki page here and learned from that, why would you continue on to say the manga gives Pitou an explicity flat chest when even the wiki page here proves that wrong? Aside from the example panel provided on Pitou's page, Togashi has drawn Pitou with a bust on numerous occasions, within and outside of the manga. It's certainly not consistent and definitely a minority within Pitou's appearances, but one thing to note is that any explictly or implicity male character within this manga is never drawn with random breasts. I don't think it signals any kind of genderqueer expression either, it just seems like Togashi evolving and playing with his designs until settling on what he thinks Pitou should look like. I'll collect examples if need be. One that I like in particular is a watercolor piece he made a few years ago, in which he made a very superfluous decision to depict what's basically a chibi of Pitou with an amusingly notable bust: https://imgur.com/a/QPs0f

But this is Togashi's decision nonetheless, and because of that, I would assert that the anime doesn't do anything in particular to make Pitou more female-coded than Togashi already had, aside from depicting a consistent bust. Which is merely drawing upon the existing character design from Togashi's manga rather than making unprecedented decisions. And not to mention Togashi gave us that volume 28 cover, which isn't exactly some profound metaphor, but painting Pitou in place of such an iconic female figure wasn't subtle. As far as I can tell, Togashi's Pitou is significantly more female-coded than anyone else's, considering he was the progenitor of every facet and change in her design.

So I don't think I can accept "flat chest in manga" as solid reasoning for leaning towards male over female coding, not when Togashi hasn't even kept to that design. It's probably not a subject that you could instantly make a decision on anyway just by glancing at a wiki or absorbing others' opinions. In fact I'm sure some might find my interpretations to come off as confirmation bias but I'm just taking the evidence for what it is, what's consistent and precedented. If you or anyone take the unique and anomalous instance of "kare" in the 2004 databook as something that trumps pretty much everything else that transpired over the next eleven years in regards to gender implications then that too is fair. I personally don't believe an old, retconned, erraneous secondary source matters much to a manga with such dynamic designs and elements compiled by a particularly fickle author, but interpretations on the databook are a discussion for another day, another thread.

I'd be more accepting of non-binary interpretations of characters, if the people who held these opinions possessed the relevant knowledge to back it up. Forgive me for assuming, but given that you weren't aware of Pouf, I imagine that you also did not personally seek out the Japanese text referencing Pitou as well, am I wrong? Most people just read things off wikis or hear it from someone else and form their opinion from that. If the crux of most of their opinions regarding Pitou is the belief that Pitou is singled out by genderless pronouns then they're not worth listening to. Honestly I feel that nebulous breasts and androgyny, while not specifically equivalent with genderqueer, is a more worthwhile reason to seek a non-binary interpretation. I would be very impressed if anyone could refute me with practical knowledge of Japanese genderqueer culture and linguistics, which I am largely lacking in. But I've never seen such a thing used to justify opinions on Neferpitou at least.

I want to ask you if you think I'm being fair with my reasoning for Pitou being female? In using Togashi's own art and character designs to point out breasts on this character, from a series where such secondary sexual characteristics have yet to be observed as anything but binary? I would never mean to imply or reinforce that a binary is the only answer, but outside of trans characters like Miyuki from YYH, Kyoko from Level E, and most recently Alluka as examples who've been given their unique contexts (for better or worse if you've read YYH), Togashi hasn't shown me reason to look for anything out of the expected average for the rest of his characters. And I mean the numerical average with all due respect, certainly not average in terms of quality. What I look for is a precedent, a reason to curb my expectations. However Togashi hasn't shown us anything that could link inexplicable breasts to something other than the female gender(expression). Obviously real life doesn't work that way and I hope you don't come under the impression of that's how I operate in person, but this is a contained world, a body of work born from a specific man with his specific views. I'm observing these views and drawing what I feel is the most logical conclusion.

I might have been a little more assertive in this post but I hope it still reaches you with civility. I realized that I did not need to walk on eggshells around you and we could have a really good discussion on our hands. That would actually be great! Of course I dont expect you to go through and pick out certain parts that would be a rather unreasonable request on my part. You are absolutely right as well I should of done more research on the topic beforehand. In that regard, surprisingly enough it was not Pitous wiki page that I went to for further information as wiki pages tend not to be the most reliable sources. After checking it out prior to your statement though it did become rather obvious that much of the iformation I found correlates to the page. My comment on the use of kare resulted after I decided to further look into the data book as I had seen it cited multiple times by various people and reading your comment on the use of boku. I totally understand your reasoning behind not wanting to use it as a  source but in my opinion when examining a series it is imprtant to take all forms of media into consideration, the source though I admit, most definitely takes precident over all others. My statement on Pitous flat chest was a reference to this pannel but as an artist myself who understands the complex process that is character design your counterclaim that this was simply part of the design process is a strong enough argument for me to agree that point is not valid.

You would be correct in your assumtion, my point of the lack of gendered pronouns maily came from the anime adaptation, my knowledge of the anime is limited to the english text but as I stated earlier what the manga portrays is more reliable a source than the anime. Genderqueer identities in Japan is a topic I actually know a bit more about that I do Hunter X Hunter but for arguments sake I'll keep it to a rather short summary. Like most non western societies the concept of a third gender is not new, in japan it first originated arround the Edo period, the modern day concept though of course is far different from how it began. In Japan the term they use for genderqueer is X gender of course it has its differences but its not too far off from the wests concept of nonbinary if you would like to do further research on the topic I have a great sight full of links that explain in more detaill that im sure I could track down again.

I do believe your reasoning is fair but being a rather feminine non binary individual myself who is honestly starved of media representation I will be holding onto my belief until there is confirmation from Togashi on either stance, As you have stated Togashi has created trans characters in the past some, like you aknowledged, are rather unfortunate portrayls, but seeing how well Alluka was handled as trans character (I know there is a large debate around this aswell but you seem to be in agreement that Alluka is presented as a trans girl) has caused my veiws of Pitou as yet another posibly trans character to feel even the slightest bit more realistic. I do also understand that your veiws are based on what we have been presented so far by togashi as a creator and yes he does seem to have the trend of linking breasts to strictly female characters but who's tp say that that trend is accurate 100% of the time. Though your reasoning was solid, it was not solid enough to fully change my beliefs but at the same time there lacks solid evidence from my side as well. To me Pitou's gender will remain unofficial and for that reason I still believe them to be genderqueer. I was not under the impression that you were transphobic or bigotted in real life as non of your points seemed to be against the idea that these identies existed but rather you aknowledged them while at the same time explaining why you believed Pitou did not belong to said identity,

You have every right to be assertive in your claims, they were obviously well researched and clearly thought out and I in know way felt like this was an attempt at provocation or anything of the like, you were a bit harsh and very blunt but you did indeed managed to keep the civility that you intended.Dancing around your points would have only weaked our convesation and made it more difficult to see the others side. I very much so enjoyed this conversation as forming a definite opinion without understanding the contrasting argument leads to nothing but further conflict and issues, I would love to keep up this debate but due to mental health reasons interactions such as this one are often draining after a certain period of time and nearly impossible for me to keep going. Please do not think this means I found our conversation boring or tedious but rather I am dissapointed that I was not able to keep it going longer. I likely will be checking up on this thread from time to time though and perhaps lookforward to discussing this further in the future.