Talk:Kite

Ging Freecss
I think it should be included that Kite was rescued by Ging from the streets. I'm not entirely sure what this means exactly but in chapter 1 Kite says pretty much just that. Viz version at least. In any case it's interesting to note.

Past Tense
As Kite is dead, shouldn't this article be in past tense? Jademing (talk)


 * That would become a spoiler to everyone who has not read the manga or not that far in the manga. Also, XScar already a created a blog post regarding that issue (it's here!) and everyone has agreed to use the present tense. -Hahaharuhi! (talk)


 * This is an encyclopedia on Hunter x Hunter. Of course there are spoilers everywhere on here. Since this is already a spoiler to the readers who has not read the manga/not that far in the manga/watch the anime only quite a lot on the main characters' pages, why do you guys not make this in past tense? Technically, it would be correct to use past tenses on this article and other dead characters, because they are dead. I see no problem with using past tenses for dead characters. Jademing (talk)
 * Well if you think that's befitting for the wikia, why don't you try to ask the other editors about this again? Personally, I agree with you in using the past tense (I don't really care much about spoilers since I love them. LOLOLOL), but like I have told you before, many of the people here--visitors, readers, editors, etc.-- want to use the present tense. But if you still want to insist on this, why not ask the admins for advice on what tense to use? Or (I repeat) a blog post about this again perhaps? (Sorry if it seems like I'm running away from the issue, but I really don't want a conflict about this. Also, I suck at defending my conviction. By the way, WELCOME TO HUNTERPEDIA! :D) -Hahaharuhi! (talk)


 * Thanks for the welcome and the advice. I'll ask the active admins for the tenses. Jademing (talk)

Kite Skills
Hello everyone. In the chapter 335, Ging mention something about the skills of kite... he say that he got a skill in his crazy perriot that will come out if he really means that he will be dead... and if he is alive if got to do something with it
 * "I'm the one who taught Kaito how to use NEN!! I taught him his ability, too!! His Crazy Pierrot has a mode called, "How Could I Die Like This?!" It only comes out if he really means it!! So if he's alive, then it probably has something to do with that!" ~ Ging to Gon

En
You should add Kite's en to his abilities, it's 45m radius (chapter 142, page 11)

kite's power
and Let's not forget that not only was Kite discovered and trained by Ging, one of the top 6 Nen users in the world, according to Biscuit, but he also managed to track Ging down. I shudder to imagine how strong Kite would have to be to even make his way into the place where Ging is hiding.Kaito took on pito and ways caught off gaurd. What's more, Pito acknowledged him as a challenge, and a "test of his limits"also What Pito said about his fight with Kaito (being "like a dream") needs to be taken into context.

Major spoiler in the introduction. Just move the "twin sister" part to the bottom

Kite's Backstory
On Kite's page background section his backstory was put. I mean do we really need to put Kite's backstory? first of all Togashi never did a scene where Ging and Kite's enconter it was only mentioned by Kite and the only backstory w/c is a canon was that he was Ging's apprentice in the manga there's no panel or page that Kite is some kind of thief or he leaves in sewers or befriending animals that backstory from the 2011 is completely a filler and a non canon from the original series so i guess its okay to delete that part from his page?


 * No don't remove it. Maybe we could say it's from the 2011 series or something, like in Kikyo's Zoldyck Family arc - Hahaharuhi! (talk)


 * ok then i will have to  edit the trivia about this one.
 * [[File:Sig_01.png]] Aszach01  Talk [[File:Sig_01.png]] 13:16, November 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * On the other hand there's a panel of Anime & Manga differences so everything is ok now.
 * [[File:Sig_01.png]] Aszach01  Talk [[File:Sig_01.png]] 13:21, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

Kite's Sword apart of Crazy Slots?

During the flash back of Kite saving Gon from the Foxbear on Whale Island, Kite uses a sword to kill the Foxbear. At that point Kite already knew Nen, so would it be a part of Crazy Slots even though the number is unknown? If not I think it should atleast be added to the this part

"Only three of his weapons are shown in the manga: a scythe, a rifle, and a mace."

Smac919 (talk) 00:35, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Kite's brain
There's some assertion in the wikia about Kite's brain being fed to the Queen, but it's just a theory backed up by nothing. I thought this wikia was supposed to be about verifiable facts. Fan theories should stick to Tumblr or whatever, where they belong.

GingFreaks (talk) 01:32, August 14, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kite's brain was fed to the Queen. Why else would Meruem's twin sister, Kite (Chimera Ant), have human Kite's memories if the Queen did not eat his brain? 09:34,8/14/2015
 * We don't even know if that's the mechanism of transferring memories, especially when the concept of the soul is played around with. It seems irresponsible to invent mechanisms to fill in knowledge gaps.  GingFreaks (talk) 16:23, August 14, 2015 (UTC)
 * Either that or your argument is actually invalid. How could Kite's memories be transferred? There was no mention of souls in the Chimera Ant arc. Have you read the Chimera Ant Queen's page? "to absorb the genes of creatures she eats and then transmit them to her spawn..." Kurt was eaten by the Queen; thus we have Colt. Reina was eaten by the Queen; thus we have Shidore. Zaikahal = Welfin; Jail = Meleoron; Human Kite = Kite (Chimera Ant). 02:54,8/15/2015
 * Kite (ant) actually has the redheaded girl's genes - the one that Koala shot, presumably killing what corresponds to the concept of a "soul". The thing is we don't know how the memories were transferred!  You are just proposing a theory.  WIKI stands for "what I know is", not "what I think is".  I can make a theory too.  The wiki loses credibility when you start filling in knowledge gaps with fan theories. GingFreaks (talk) 18:02, August 15, 2015 (UTC)
 * Wait. Chimera Ants have memories from their past lives. We know that much. Apparently, the most important memories come from their human genes - Ikalgo, Welfin, and many others have memories both from their human and animal lives, but the former are the ones that influence them the most and through which they define themselves. Now, I really don't see how Kite's Conjuration ability could have led him to manipulate reality in such a way that he is reborn into the body of someone he has never met long after his death, Conjuration surely is not random metempsychosis. Still, we can rephrase it in such a way that it is not specified, but be polite in the way you present your ideas and start making contributions before teaching an admin how she should do her job. Martialmaniac (talk) 23:37, December 19, 2015 (UTC)


 * The fact that Girl Kite has Kite's memories but another person's body suggests that the transfer of memories happened in a way that is different from the other Ants that remembered their human pasts. I believe that the hypothesis that Kite's memory re-emerged through different means (one obvious theory as suggested by Ging being his "No Way I'm Gonna Die" slot, which could be a device whose nen strengthens after death) holds more than enough water to question that we "Know" his brain was fed to the queen. In fact, I personally believe it is more likely that his brain was in fact NOT fed to the queen. Acidkeeper (talk) 14:35, August 29, 2016 (UTC)


 * The fact that Girl Kite has Kite's memories but another person's body suggests that the transfer of memories happened in a way that is different from the other Ants that remembered their human pasts. 
 * Why? That's just another ant body - there are several ants who have mostly human appearances with animal charaacteristics etc. And as far as appearance should go; Humans are just another animal in the pool - although the most common/dominant in this one, obviously. There is no strong evidence to suggest Kite is physiologically different from any other ant. The best we have, is that ant kite grew from a baby-form - but that is probably more related to being Meruem's twin.Flaremmm (talk) 22:33, August 29, 2016 (UTC)
 * Ant Kite's human genes are strongly suggested to belong to the red-haired girl the koala killed. This is the first known case of an Ant derived from more than one human. (At the very least we know no case of any Ant remembering more than one human past life, or with a memory-gene mismatch.) Acidkeeper (talk) 14:10, August 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's heavily implied that Kite's rebirth was not a standard "eaten by the Queen and reborn as an Ant" process - Ging straight-up says he believes it's Kite's powers that caused it, though we don't know how. Some other information hints at it too: At the point where Kite was killed by Pitou, the Queen had already "conceived" Meruem, and she explicitly was putting all of her energy into his gestation. It makes no sense that she would conceive another child and risk Meruem's development. (And, though it's shonen manga and authors might not necessarily know this, it's basically impossible to remove a brain while leaving the eyes intact. That's a really nitpicky bit of "evidence", though.) Olivemeister (talk) 01:19, October 21, 2016 (UTC)

Gender
I thought we've already established that Kite is male, because he was only reborn in a female body does not mean he's female. Or are we going to pull out the Alluka card and say Kite is female because of how he looks? 10:16,12/19/2015

There's no clear indication of how Kite identifies himself now, and it's especially confusing as he'll use either a very feminine or very masculine personal pronoun depending on who he was speaking to. Ultimately neither argument has a leg to stand on, but I think it's important to acknowledge that Kite is a girl now (not "looks like"), as stated in the manga. There's no reason to sooner believe he currently identifies as male rather than female while the opposite is also true, anything further than that is personal interpretation and probably doesn't belong on a wiki.

Personally though I would still use he/him pronouns despite the above.

And I'd also object to calling Kite Meruem's "twin", they're twins about as much as the guards are triplets. Kite had a separate egg sac and wasn't close to ready for birth, why call them twins? Mountaintimber (talk) 17:50, December 19, 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree with the ambiguity. We have seen Kite now has all his memories and the same personality as before his death. Even if we decide to examine minor details, he addesses people the same way and has rejected the female name "Reina" for "Kite". Thus I think it's the opposite: the manga strongly implies - rather, states - he is the same as before and hence considers himself male, so there is no reason as of now to opt for gender ambiguity.

I checked. They used "looks like a girl" to mean "even though she is only a few days old, she looks like a human girl of about X years of age". I don't think it's unacceptable, but there is always room for improvement.

As for the "twins" matter, I disagree again. The main difference is that the Guards, like almost all Chimera Ants, developed in and "hatched" from sacks outside the Queen's body, while Kite and Meruem fully grew inside her body, like humans. In the first case we do not use the term "twins", but, since we seem to consider chimera ants more or less like humans, we should use it in the second. Martialmaniac (talk) 23:22, December 19, 2015 (UTC)

Ok first off sorry to start such a gender ambiguous discussion on here, since I was the one whom made the edit that states on the page that the current Kite is female, since I guess I didn't think it over for the fact that Kite may consider him/herself either male or female even though Kite now has the appearance of a girl. Secondly anyone wants to they can or I can revert the edits back to that Kite is Male.

RumbleXRumble (talk) 00:32, December 20, 2015 (UTC)

@Martialmaniac  I don't recall the manga ever saying that Kite is the same old Kite (I could be wrong but I'd need a source), and the very fact that Kite continues to talk like a little girl even AFTER regaining his memories absolutely proves that Kite isn't just the same old Kite that we knew. There's still nothing to show that Kite still considers himself male, much less anything being "strongly implied".

On the twins matter, I'm not sure if having began development in the Queen is enough to call Kite a twin of Meruem. I mean, logically all ants begin life in the Queen. Kite wasn't conceived at the same time as Meruem, didn't develop alongside Meruem, and supposed to be born at the same time as Meruem. Unless you're redefining the word twin, it just really doesn't seem to apply. Using the word in a "human" context is completely meaningless since there's nothing remotely human surrounding the circumstances of chimera ant birth.

Mountaintimber (talk) 03:41, December 23, 2015 (UTC)

Trivia point?
I didn't want to drop this on the page without discussing it, since I don't know what the standard (if there is a standard) is for writing Japanese-exclusive terms on the wiki. And also because I just don't feel like dropping something onto a page without talking about the addition in advance.

So a lot of us probably know that human Kite and ant Kite use different pronouns. For the most part, ant Kite uses the feminine (and very childish) "atachi". This is the pronoun used for the "My name is Kite!" reveal, and it's the pronoun Kite uses while speaking to Koala and Spinner.

When Kite is speaking to Gon at the end of the Election Arc, "atachi" is abandoned. For the entire conversation with Gon, Kite uses "ore". (It's a little meta and I don't think my speculation belongs on the page but I took this as being an act of reassurance towards Gon - "I look different, but I'm still the Kite you remember". Given that Kite uses "atachi" with Spinner, it definitely appears that this change is for Gon and not an "I use this with people who knew me as a human" thing.) It was mentioned earlier that ant Kite's pronoun changes, but this literally only happens when Kite talks to Gon.

Would this be something worth putting as trivia? What I'd personally put is "Kite's personal pronoun changes from オレ  ("ore", masculine) to あた ち  ("atachi", feminine) after being reborn as a Chimera Ant. However, when speaking to Gon after the election ends, Kite uses オレ once more." I don't know what's better, to use the romaji version of the pronoun or the original katakana or both or what, so I just went with that. Olivemeister (talk) 01:12, October 21, 2016 (UTC)

Atashi and Ore
As Olivemeister pointed out, after regaining all of his memories, Kite ha sused both masculine and feminine pronouns. The last he uses is the masculine one, but this could mean pretty much anything: that he doesn't care, that he's gender-fluid/non-binary, that he used "atashi" only because he was being addressed as the girl Koala had killed, that he used a pronoun Gon would be more comfortable with... As of now, I think it's impossible to dteermine Kite's gender. I do believe he still views himself as male, since I don't think he never admitted having any of the red-haired girl's memories (which would imply he used "atashi" to identify himself as that girl and allow Koala to apologize); still, since we can't be sure, I believe his current gender should be left as "unknown". Martialmaniac (talk) 19:03, February 28, 2017 (UTC)

I'm here for going vague on the issue of CA!Kite's gender, and additionally swapping pronouns from rebirth onward to the neutral "they" instead of "he". Olivemeister (talk) 21:40, February 28, 2017 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that we should base his pronouns upon his biological sex rather than the pronouns he uses to refer to himself, and as we're fairly certain on his sex before and after his transition into a Chimera Ant, I believe we should refer to him with "he" and "him" before his transformation and "she" and "her" afterwards. Pigzillion (talk) 22:18, February 28, 2017 (UTC)

There's support for basically anything, but that actual reasoning ("biological sex is the ultimate decider") is really, really questionable and unfortunate. Olivemeister (talk) 22:57, February 28, 2017 (UTC)

Biological sex is the ultimate decider; state of mind doesn't change biology, and the notion that a person's pronouns should be changed because of their state of mind is preposterous. As such, since I believe we're all in agreement that kite was biologically male pre-chimera ant and biologically female post Chimera Ant, it's my opinion that we should change his pronouns accordingly. Pigzillion (talk) 23:19, February 28, 2017 (UTC)

That's a mess. Olivemeister (talk) 23:22, February 28, 2017 (UTC)

No, it's biology, and mentality does not change physicality. I am aware that gender dysphoria exists, and I am aware that mentally Kite may well be male, but changing the pronouns of a fictional character because their mental state in complete contradiction to their biological sex seems like a much bigger mess, and one which I believe should be avoided. Pigzillion (talk) 23:43, February 28, 2017 (UTC)

In my honest opinion, I do think we should leave the masculine pronouns be. Moreover, it only occurred to me just now that Kite's page has two different pronouns, and there are paragraphs where we used "he" and then "she". It is confusing to say the least. Now, as for the usage of atashi, if I remember correctly, Kite only used that when he was a child, basically a toddler. I don't even think Reina (as Kite was called that time) would have all of his memories back. Much later, when Gon vists Kite, Kite has obviously remembered everything and begins referring to himself as, well, he.

And this is not another Alluka argument. With Alluka, we are told that Alluka is a son of the Zoldyck family, who referred to herself in feminine pronouns all of the time. With Kite, we saw him first when he met Gon in Whale Island, saw him as a Contract Hunter and battling Ants. We have everything to call Kite in masculine pronouns, yet one moment Kite used atashi, everyone loses their minds. 15:16,3/2/2017

Honestly, I think Kite is more confusing that Alluka. He was undoubtedly male before his transformation and viewed himself as such, yet he underwent a complete transformation after his death and changed into a female on a genetic level. I'll address that again later, but I'll make my case first on why I think it might  .appropriate to refer to Kite as female(after his transformation, of course).

I should start off by saying that whilst I did agree in the end that Alluka should have had the pronouns in his article changed to feminine ones, I have changed my stance on the matter. I won't be suggesting that we change his pronouns back, as any further additions to the discussion after about 2 years of debate would only create further turmoil, especially after a consensus has already been reached, but since his and Kite's cases are so similar, I will be speaking about it at some length. It is of my opinion that we should not base the pronouns that we use for these characters on how they themselves identify. We should base their pronouns off their biological sex. This is in complete contradiction to what I said earlier with Alluka, but after hearing differing opinions and debates on the topic, my belief has been swayed. Gender is not independent of sex. Gender is not independent of biology.

If Killua had stated that Alluka were a 6-year-old, female Chimera Ant with pink hair and purple eyes, we would not change his age from 11 to 6. We would not change his species from human to Chimera Ant. We would not change his hair colour from black to pink. We would not change his eye colour from blue(or black) to purple. And yet, however, it is entirely possible, I'd go even as far to say it was plausible, that we would have a long winded debate as to whether we change his gender from male to female. I do not agree with this sentiment. I do not agree that we should state that black haired characters have pink hair. I do not agree that Human characters should be referred to as Chimera ants. And  I do not believe that we should refer to men as women and women as men.

Gender Dysphoria exists. That is an indisputable scientific fact, supported by many studies and brain scans conducted on transgender individuals, and I would not deny that Alluka may suffer from such a thing. But with that said, his state of mind does not change his physical body. Mentality does not trump physicality. Just because Alluka believes himself to be female, and just because Killua is feeding his delusion, this does not change the fact that every cell in his body(with the exception of some of his sperm cells, ironically enough), contains a Y chromosome, and I believe that is what should dictate the pronouns we use for these characters, not the gender they believe themselves to be. We wouldn't change any other biological fact on his article just because he believes it to be different. We wouldn't change his hair colour to pink just because he believed it to be pink. We wouldn't change his eye colour to purple just because he believed it to be purple. And as such, we shouldn't change his pronouns to female just because he believes himself to be female.

I will admit, however, that this line of argument becomes somewhat confusing when applied to Kite, as he's basically just one big thought experiment in this context. I could go through my thought process concerning this issue, but it's honestly just a nonsensical mess that I can't write down in a logical and easy-to-read manner, so I'll just finish off with the conclusion.

In my honest opinion, I think that in the case of post-Chimera-Ant Kite, we should refer to her using female pronouns, as she is without a doubt biologically female, and as I have said before, biology trumps mentality. But as Kite was biologically male and identified as male before his transformation, it could be argued that he is still male due to him being male previously in his character continuity, and should be referred to as such. Whilst I do agree that the latter is a convincing argument, however, I think that it makes more sense to change his pronouns according to his character continuity, rather than just sticking to the sex of his birth even after his rebirth. He should be referred to as male before his transformation, and female afterwards.

As I said, it's pretty confusing. Pigzillion (talk) 18:06, March 2, 2017 (UTC)

I'd like to specify that the feminine pronoun that Kite uses isn't atashi but as the original editor said, atachi (an even more childish variant of atashi). Also, he doesn't only use atachi in the toddler scene but also in the grown up scene where he talks to Koala. He reverts to using the manly "ore" when talking to Gon. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDohMtkx7Wc). He does not use any particular pronoun in the one line he addresses to Spinner Clow.

This could mean a number of things. I don't think the pronoun we use matter too much at this stage. (Though I do like the interpretation that Kite has become non-binary and more specifically genderfluid.)

Also, regarding what pronoun to use for non-binary characters, what is standard for characters seems to simply be consistent with what is standard for real people. To wit:

Division of Public Affairs (September 2011). "Style Guide" (PDF). Vanderbilt University. p. 34. Retrieved 2013-09-17. "Use the pronoun preferred by the individuals who have acquired the physical characteristics of the opposite sex or present themselves in a way that does not correspond with their sex at birth."

Associated Press (2015). "transgender". The Associated Press Stylebook 2015. ISBN 9780465097937. "Use the pronoun preferred by the individuals who have acquired the physical characteristics of the opposite sex or present themselves in a way that does not correspond with their sex at birth. If that preference is not expressed, use the pronoun consistent with the way the individuals live publicly."

Sponsored by the American Medical Association and The Fenway Health with unrestricted support from Fenway Health and Pfizer. "Meeting the Health Care Needs of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender (LGBT) People: The End to LGBT Invisibility" (PowerPoint Presentation). The Fenway Institute. p. 24. Retrieved 2013-09-17. "Use the pronoun that matches the person's gender identity"

So according to stylistic guides in modern usage pronouns make no claim as to the referred individual's chromosomal or gonadic sex so it is not incorrect information to refer to a character in the way they present themselves as even if it contrasts with their biology.

Which indicates Alluka should be referred to as "she" and ant Kite can be referred to as whatever. Acidkeeper (talk) 09:25, April 21, 2017 (UTC)

Just because a university in Nashville has chosen to feed the delusions of a certain group of individuals at their own institute and are forcing their students to do so, that doesn't mean we should follow suit on this wiki. A person's gender is not independent of their sex, and neither are their pronouns, meaning Alluka should be referred to as he and Chimera Ant Kite should be referred to as she. Pigzillion (talk) 19:13, April 21, 2017 (UTC)

Do you have style guides supporting your claim or are you arguing for the wiki to go against English language convention for politically motivated reasons? Feel free to share if it's the former, and if it is the latter even first assuming your reasoning is right we have to enter the separate debate of whether it is a wikia's role to consciously defy convention to further an agenda.

On a separate note, Wikipedia has a concise and useful protocol for gender identity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Gender_identity). Not posting that as a stylistic authority (that is what the above links were for), but more as useful guidelines for future reference. Acidkeeper (talk) 10:26, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

The Associated Press is a multi-conglomerate news organisation situated in New York City. It is a Private News Organisation, and what it demands its writers attain to using its own personal Style Guide has no bearing on anything whatsoever, other than how it's own writers should structure their articles.

The Vanderbilt University is, again, a private institute of education which has its own Rules and Regulations regarding how it's students may refer to individuals of questionable sexual identity. Just because this Private Institute has chosen to push its own Style Guides onto its students does not mean we should follow suit on the wiki.

Using these Style Guides as a model to follow suit from is, therefore, unreasonable, until we can reach a consensus as to whether or not how a person chooses to identify should affect the pronouns we use to refer to them by, and they are by no means an accurate representation of English Language Convention as a whole. They represent the linguistic restrictions and left-leaning language policies of these certain private institutes, with The Associated Press even forbidding the use of "Illegal immigrant", and stating that Republicans in America "reject mainstream science". As such, your suggestion that I only seek to push my own "political agenda"  and ignore basic English Language Convention is hypocritical and slanderous. Pigzillion (talk) 12:10, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

The AP stylebook is not an internal guideline set but "the leading reference for most forms of public-facing corporate communication over the last half-century".

Sorry for the hypocritical and slanderous suggestions, I genuinely understood your reasoning to be politically motivated, and make no judgement of it other than it requires entering the separate debate of whether it is within the scope of the wikia to take a stance against, again, sorry to disagree on that, English language convention.

Since you disagree that it is English language convention to refer to individuals by their assumed gender identity, and that used pronouns make no claim as to gonadic/chromosomal sex, could you link some examples of reputable writings, or style guides, purposely referring to transgender people by pronouns other than their preferred ones? I think that would be very helpful. Acidkeeper (talk) 16:45, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary, which defines male pronouns such as he and his as the following; "Used to refer to a man, boy, or male animal". The dictionary also defines the word "Male" as the following; "Of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilised or inseminated to produce offspring". For female pronouns, it is as follows; "Belonging to or associated with a female person or animal". It defines the word "female" as the following; "Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes which can be fertilised by male gametes". As for the Cambridge English dictionary, it's definition is virtually identical.

Is that good enough, or do you find the Oxford and Cambridge definitions to fit outside of "Standard English Language Convention"? And before you say it; yes, using these two private universities for my own arguments is hypocritical of me, but as you seem to hold your own examples in such high regard, I thought I would use two of the most prestigious educational institutions in history in defence of my own stance on the matter.

What was it you said? That "in modern uses, a person's pronouns make no reference to their gonadic/chromosomal sex"? I believe it was something along those lines. And I also believe that such a statement also falls out of what many would consider to be Standard English Language Convention, as such a thing goes against the very definitions of the pronouns you suggest we refer to these characters by. From what I am aware, Kite has two X chromosomes. From what I am aware, she has ovaries and female genitalia. And, from what I am aware, the very antithesis of the previous two statements can be said about Alluka. Thus, according to Standard English Language Convention and the definitions of he/his etc and she/her etc, we should refer to said characters by their biological sex, and not how they themselves choose to identify as. Or would you disagree? Pigzillion (talk) 19:12, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

Seeing as you accept Oxford and Cambridge Universities as a source, can you find us a text from Oxford/Cambridge that purposely uses other pronouns than a transgender person's preferred ones? If you do then we'll have established it is not standard usage. Acidkeeper (talk) 22:42, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

To what end? Even if the universities did choose to "respect" a transgendered person's preferred pronouns, they would still be grammatically incorrect in their usage, as they would be going against the very definitions of the pronouns they are using, and thus, would not be conforming to standard English. So, and this is a fairly legitimate question(though I think I already know your answer), what would you suggest? That we conform to the incorrect usage of the English language, used by a number of high-profile private institutes, or the established definitions of the words, written inside the Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries, which directly contradicts the former's stance on the matter? If it is, in fact, the former, I'd like to ask why we even refer to dictionaries to begin with, if we can simply disregard their definitions at whim whenever it suits out own political agendas. Pigzillion (talk) 23:24, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

I already said to what end - in order to prove that using a transgender person's preferred pronouns is not standard usage. It seems you were not able to find any example. Unless you can provide examples of reputable writings purposely using other pronouns than a non-binary individual's preferred ones then I think we should consider it standard usage considering major stylistic guides' recommendations and the fact that examples of using a person's preferred pronouns are seen everywhere.

For example-- Fox News: "LOS ANGELES –  Four years after "Matrix" filmmaker Lana Wachowski revealed she was transgender," - http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2016/03/09/second-filmmaking-wachowski-sibling-comes-out-as-transgender.html

Daily Mail: "The second Wachowski sibling has come out as transgender - four years after her sister." - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3483282/Second-Wachowski-sibling-comes-transgender-four-years-sister.html

Dictionary entries are a descriptive summary of conventional usage which unsurprisingly do not always address specific cases such as this one. What is standard usage in this case, however, is clear as per journalistic and academic writings and recommendations from both political wings. I may change my mind if you manage to provide examples of reputable writings that purposely use other pronouns' than a transgendered person's preferred ones.

Acidkeeper (talk) 09:11, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

Daily Wire: "Caitlyn Jenner goes to the White House"

Rebel Media: "Notely's NDP forcing schools to let boys into girls' change rooms "

Townhall: "I don't care about your 'preferred pronoun'. I'll simply call you what you are. "

The previous three articles are all using the pronouns correctly, as they fit directly into the definition of the terms "male" and "female". Those that pretend that a man is a woman because he feels like it, and vice versa, are not following historically accurate and dictionary definitions, and thus, are not conforming to Standard English Language Convention.

You are likely to counter this with "There are many more news sources which address transgendered people according to their preferred pronouns", to which I would counter, by saying they would be going against pre-established definitions in order to feed the delusions of a minuscule minority of people. No matter what links you post past this point, showing writers referring to transgendered individuals by their preferred pronouns, I will only counter by saying they are not following standard usage by not following dictionary definition, and that a number of news outlets and English speaking people do not conform to the idea that pronouns usage is distinct from biological sex. Pigzillion (talk) 18:10, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

Ok I've read some of the back and forth arguments on this topic by Pigzillion aka Alex and Acidkeeper. From what I understand from both sides is that it's an argument on whether Kite's Pronoun should be Masculine & Feminine or simply neutral. Both sides have brought up valid points and rebuttals to the other's respective points, but since one side has seemingly dropped from the argument completely it's not clear that the side (Acidkeeper) has conceded to Alex's logic as it's been roughly over 2 months now.

So in that light I'd say if Acidkeeper doesn't respond to this topic, until the deadline of July 8th to make it exactly 3 months since the two sides have posted then it will be decided that we'll just go with Pigzillion's point of view, unless any admins have anything against my proposal. As for if Acidkeeper comes back tries to argue if my judgement is unfair in anyway shape or form after the deadline, TOO BAD. You've had more than an ample amount of time to come back to this topic to argue about this further, but have failed to do so.

Hopefully this can bring some closure.

RumbleXRumble (talk) 14:23, June 17, 2017 (UTC)

Very good; hopefully we can get Genial's input, also.Pigzillion (talk) 17:01, June 17, 2017 (UTC)

Sigh, it always has to be a gender issue around here.

Here's my take, when referring to Kite pre chimera ant days, it's obvious that he's male and should be referred to with male pronouns, that's unquestionable.

When referring to Chimera ant Kite, use female pronouns until there's any confirmation that Kite wishes to be adressed with male pronouns, Kite only using male pronouns in a conversation with Gon isn't enough evidence considering the history between them, it makes sense that Kite would use male pronouns, it's a special case, If Chimera ant Kite's biological gender is female and Kite seemingly uses female pronouns when talking to Koala, we should keep it that way for now. MrGenial11 (talk) 19:49, June 17, 2017 (UTC)

I don't care about Kite's preferred pronouns; pronoun usage is determined by biological sex, not a person's mental state. That was what the entire argument was about, and after I stated my final piece on the matter Acidkeeper was unable to retort and decided not to reply at all, hence Kite should be referred to using female pronouns after his transformation and male pronouns before, regardless of any confirmation as to his preferred pronouns. Pigzillion (talk) 20:37, June 17, 2017 (UTC)

We'll see about that if that time ever comes, but for now I agree with referring to Kite as male and Chimera ant Kite as female. MrGenial11 (talk) 00:43, June 18, 2017 (UTC)

The time should come in about 20 days, at which point a much larger elephant in the room will have to be addressed, also. Pigzillion (talk) 09:34, June 18, 2017 (UTC)

I thin it is imo naive to say that "I'll just call you what you are" when sexes is and has always been IDEAL metrics and not the sole judgement in practice the first place. There are many different circumstances, conditions, defects etc that can all prevent people from falling into even the biological stereotupes of sexes. Such as possessing more than 1 pair or strand of X or Y chromosome, having a body that fails to respond to their primary sex hormones produced by their sex organs, having a birth drfects that may genetrically or physically ruin their sex organ or having it fail to develop correctly etc etc. All of these can ultimaltely play a part in one's presentation of themselves, and subsequently their personal perception in interaction with the public expections and their own which forms their gender identity.

In essence, sexes and genders are not independent, but they are also not one and the same. They are closely tied, as a subset of one's identity. And it should not be that we ignore one and completely favour another. There is a difference between delusion and seeing yourself in a certain way. Delusion comes at the expense of reasoning and awareness, self-perception is the product of reasoning and awareness. There is a difference between "I am a wolf awooooooo" and "I know I'm a human, but I want to be seen as a wolf". Whether or not you agree with the latter is another matter, but it is not having lose screws.

Not to mention, even before all that said, the dictionary definitions never applied to transgender in the first place, at least not for mtf, where you argued that they should still be referred to as male because they're supposely able to pregnent women. At least in the mtf's, their hormone treatment will make them infertile (I think ftm can still get pregnent as long as they stop their hrt or something but can be wrong). Hence on that basis alone the definitions do not apply. But I digress.

Anyway, point is: Sex is not definite in the first place, and neither is personal perception immediately mental or "delusional" just because they don't see themselves as they are "supposed to" or something.

Chimera ant Kite should imo, have a female pronoun until they have specifically said to be refer to ad male. Reasoning: Kite is currently biological female, and uses female specific pronouns to refer to themselves, both "physical" and "mental" reasoning will be used; and if it really comes one day that Kite wants to be seen as a man or whatever, there should be no objection to use the male pronoun in that instance. It's not so much that "mind trumps evetything" but again, biology isn't that simple and concrete to begin with, and that there is nothing wrong for person to be called for what they want to be seen as long as they had thought it through. It's I guess, dependent on respect a bit.

(I typed this on the phone, expect some grammar errors. Sorry about this.)

EDIT: not "concrete", the word i was looking for was "binary".

&#34;I Want a Stand&#34; by me (talk) 09:41, June 18, 2017 (UTC)

Did you read the thread fully? Because I pretty much addressed all of that in one of my first responses. Pigzillion (talk) 09:43, June 18, 2017 (UTC)

And on a similar note, would you refer to the person that stated "I know I'm human, but I want to be seen as a wolf" using wolf specific pronouns, or change your language in any other way to accomodate their belief that they are in fact a wolf? Pigzillion (talk) 09:45, June 18, 2017 (UTC)

Do you not have respect for other's choices, born from reasoning, just because you don't like it for not being 'absolutely true'? Do you go to Mc'Donalds and give speeches on healthy eating everyday? Not to mention as said and known, biology is not binary in he first place, so I don't think your approach stands since day 1 anyway; the extremity of male and female has always been an "ideal" scenario based on human's need to categorise everything and draw differences even in fluid systems, the product is by no means suddenly a universal metric.

You also miss the point of psychiatric help entirely. The point of mental health is NOT to correct them because you want it "right", but to help them restore their grasp of themselves, their awareness and their critical thinking abilities. If someone has made a decision about how they see themselves on PERSONAL terms because the really had thought about it, there is Nothing to fix. And there is nothing to change just because you do not like how someone excerises their private and completely non-harmful thoughts about wanting to been seen a certain way.

&#34;I Want a Stand&#34; by me (talk) 10:03, June 18, 2017 (UTC)